It&#39;s a full life, if a trifle banal

His life’s work: leaving her the world he never had.

Lovely. I do think Faramir & Denethor had a lot in common, but I hope Faramir manages to profit by his father's errors.

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Yes, it's interesting to speculate what kind of Steward Denethor would have been in peacetime, or even in a situation less desperate:

"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."

Sort of in the back of mind is the idea that this drabble takes place shortly after Faramir has had to tell his (mid-to-late-teenage) children about the pyre.

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I think he'd have been a bloody good one, especially if one or both of Finduilas & Boromir survived. I think he might have made a passable father under those circumstances too. The favouritism towards Boromir, his heir, would have played out better if Finduilas lived & was even handed. (I haven't looked at the timeline of late, but if Finduilas had lived there might have been other children too.)

Reading the quotation, it strikes me that he says his own master.

...shortly after Faramir has had to tell his (mid-to-late-teenage) children about the pyre.

Aie. Suicide & madness are now rather loaded for me. I'm glad now I never had any children.

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I agree he would have been a good Steward. A very traditional, strict father, but if Finduilas has been present, that would have softened the household environment considerably. And, as you say, if Boromir had remained the favourite, that wouldn't have mattered so much if Finduilas was compensating. (I think Finduilas might have had more children, she's 36 when she dies, IIRC.) It's the palantir, reeally, that ruins Denethor, and he only looks into that out of desperation and duty.

*hugs you*

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Not even the palantir, so much as Sauron twisting what he sees there. I hate the way his later actions are demonised by some parts of fandom (not helped by the hideous portrayal in the Jackson film) when he's as much a victim of the Enemy as anyone, and stronger than most.

What we need is cheery Finduilas-got-better stories :)

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Yes, the strain of that battle of wills, which I think he gradually starts losing. It must become steadily easier for Sauron to twist what he's seeing over the years.

What we need is cheery Finduilas-got-better stories :)

I wish someone would give that a go! There are loads of "Boromir Lives!" stories, after all.

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I can't think of one offhand. She's such a shadow in the text that it would basically mean creating an original character, which most people don't seem to enjoy. (Don't know why; I'm coming to realise it's my favourite bit.)

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There are several fanfic versions of her out there, some very fleshed out, but no, I've not seen anything that takes the AU route either.

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I'm not sure I've ever been that convinced by her. I find slash young-Denethor stories easier to believe, for some reason.

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I think something on the lines of Dorothea and Casaubon. Obviously Denethor would be a tremendously charismatic figure: brilliant, those Numenorean good looks, and I think Finduilas would take her role and responsibility as first lady of Gondor incredibly seriously. And I think that Denethor falls for someone young, beautiful, and gentle, who cares for him and is willing to devote herself to him/his job/Gondor. That's how I read it.

And slash young-Denethor stories make perfect sense to me too.

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Interesting. I hadn't thought of it quite like that (the longer age spans make age differences work differently, perhaps). I think there's a tremendous element of willing self-immolation in Dorothea's choice of Casaubon, and also a lack of other intelligent options presenting themselves. I certainly don't think the latter would apply to Finduilas. At least Denethor isn't impotent...

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No, I don't see Finduilas as having any political ambitions that she's sublimating. I guess I think of her and Denethor as making and trying to achieve a very conventional, traditional marriage - with all the strain that historically put on both parties. And staring Mordor in the face doesn't help.

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I see Dorothea at the opening as the type of nun who wants to share in Christ's agony. At least with Finduilas the cause she's sacrificing herself for (Gondor) is a real one, and one where she has the potential to make a real, if small, difference. I can see there being a role laid out historically for the First Lady of Gondor that goes beyond social events and into, say, charity work. Where it fails for Finduilas is where the cause looks to be as hopeless/pointless as Casaubon's search for the key to all mythology. Perhaps the Finduilas Happy Ending Story has Denethor expiring? (It might even be a Denethor HES as well, if he died fighting Sauron for his soul.) Though I'm not too cheery about the fate of Gondor in the hands of Boromir.

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Yes, that's an important difference: Dorothea loses faith in Casaubon's entire project, whereas Finduilas continues to believe in Gondor, but doesn't think it's going to survive.

Perhaps the Finduilas Happy Ending Story has Denethor expiring?

That's sad :-(

I think I am more positive about Boromir's Stewardship than you are, particularly with Faramir as chief sidekick. What worries you about it?

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I don't think Boromir's too bright and I think he depends too much on the might in arms of Gondor. It would depend on how much he relies on Faramir's wisdom, I suppose, and how much being Steward goes to his head.

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I like Isabeau's interpretation of him as a canny operator if not book smart. You'd have to be fairly smart to be that well regarded as Captain-General, even if your Quenya isn't up to much. Or do you think Denethor is entirely the brains there.

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I think he's probably perfectly fine at planning and executing self-limited military campaigns, and he doesn't waste men (as you say of Travis/Servalan) nor forget an army marches on its stomach. But as to government or a long-drawn out military campaign, I think he does as his Steward tells him. It's the unquestioning loyalty that buys him Denethor's love.

ETA: I'd buy he was a good judge of character, perhaps, which is a decent transferable skill.

Edited Date: 2011-05-27 03:48 pm (UTC)

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He's also kind: Pippin admires his kindness, and he's the "protector" of young Faramir.

It's the unquestioning loyalty that buys him Denethor's love.

Yes, I think that's definitely a substantial part of it, although I do think that there's something about Boromir that Denethor unconditionally loves, and its probably something to do with that kindness, turned into generosity of spirit. Something expansive and unreserved that Denethor doesn't have (nor Faramir). I imagine Ecthelion being much the same, and I bet that contributes to the part of Denethor's love for Boromir that is unconditional. Boromir provides something that Gondor needs that Denethor thinks that he (Denethor) cannot supply.

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Oh, indeed, Boromir has many good qualities, but I'm not sure he really has what it takes to be the head of a large nation engaged in a long war with a superior power. Not at that age, anyway.

I imagine Ecthelion being much the same, and I bet that contributes to the part of Denethor's love for Boromir that is unconditional.

This is very plausible, as I think is the idea that his sunniness reminds Denethor of the Finduilas he married.

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Oh, indeed, Boromir has many good qualities, but I'm not sure he really has what it takes to be the head of a large nation engaged in a long war with a superior power.

Fair comment. I can see a situation in which Boromir would make a popular and well-loved figurehead, inspiring people in time of war, and Faramir would fill in many of the other gaps. Sort of like Eärnur and Mardil - hey, and we know how well that turned out!

Edited Date: 2011-05-30 05:13 pm (UTC)

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Indeed, he's more suited to be a king than a steward.

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And knows it.

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That's the thousand gold piece question, I think. If he were to be humble enough to accept the advice of Faramir & other advisors all might work out to the good, but if the power of the position went to his head and he started thinking he was actually in charge...

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I'd like to think he'd be able to keep on listening to Faramir. Faramir shows himself capable of disagreeing with his father, a much more intimidating figure, and so I can't see him having difficulties in calling out his brother.

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applegnat.livejournal.com

I'm in love with all these children. I'll never be able to think of Ithilien without them. ♥

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Bless you,

applegnat, that is an incredibly generous thing to say.

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I love the image of Morwen prowling fiercely - he calls her "blackbird" but she sounds more like the cat who's stalking the bird!

(Is she dark-haired like her grandmother, then? For some reason I had her down in my head as blond...)

And no, Faramir, Gondor is not your hobby, Gondor is your job! (As I'm sure Morwen will point out...)

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Yes, she's dark-haired (Léof is the blond one). And Morwen = "dark maiden".

And no, Faramir, Gondor is not your hobby, Gondor is your job!

His hobby obviously being first editions. (And chess.)

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His hobby obviously being first editions. (And chess.)

And do you think Gondor has harpsichords? (Or did Wimsey favour the spinet, I forget?) "Bach for tomorrow, when the grey matter begins to revolve..."

Morwen = "dark maiden"

D'oh. Told you I wasn't very with it this evening.

Edited Date: 2011-05-26 10:29 pm (UTC)

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I suppose Léof would be the cricketer.

And I think everyone's Sindarin gets a little flaky after 11pm.

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Hah, I am now imagining the cast of LoTR on the cricket pitch...

Eomer is the Ian Botham figure, mane of blond hair, all welly and no finesse, thumping it over the Rammas Echor for six. Aragorn is the all-rounder; demon fast bowler (with that height), bats at No. 3. Faramir is, of course, a spin bowler (devious, deceptive Ranger type). Legolas is devastating in the outfield; the Hobbits field at slip. Gimli keeps wicket.

Oh, and Gandalf umpires, obviously.

(And Eowyn keeps demanding to know why she is expected to keep score and rustle up the cucumber sandwiches ;-) )

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This is making me insanely happy. Faramir bats like Paul Collingwood/Brigadier Block *(read the first paragraph here).

Denethor always retains the ashes.

And Eowyn watches her menfolk indulgently, before heading off to do what she considers to be a proper sport, like rockclimbing or bungee jumping or white water rafting.

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Faramir bats like Paul Collingwood

Hee, yes. Dogged defence in the last ditch.

Denethor always retains the ashes.

Oi! Beverage warning!

And Eowyn watches her menfolk indulgently, before heading off to do what she considers to be a proper sport, like rockclimbing or bungee jumping or white water rafting.

Or Australian Rules football ;-)

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Oi! Beverage warning!

Sorry, sorry, had to be said!

Or Australian Rules football ;-)

Or Orc Patrol

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Clearly there isn't enough cricket in LoTR..

Which makes me want to quote Wendy Cope's The Cricketing Versions:

'There isn't much cricket in the Cromwell play' (overheard at a dinner party)

There isn't much cricket in Hamlet either,
There isn't much cricket in Lear.
I don't think there's any in Paradise Lost*
- I haven't a copy right here.

* Apparently there is. 'Chaos umpire sits,/And by decision more embroils the fray.' Paradise Lost, Book II, lines 907-8.

Now I'm just imagining them all in cricket whites [fwump]

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Ha! Didn't know that one, brilliant!

Now I'm just imagining them all in cricket whites [fwump]

*happy noises*

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The poem goes on to imagine the various conflicts of the works in question being fought out on the cricket pitch instead - Laertes: Howzat! etc :-)

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She comments later in the poem, "You could make a long list of the plays and the books/In which there's no cricket at all."

This is, of course, true, but ignores the utter brilliance of things like Chapter 18 of Murder must Advertise ("Unexpected Conclusion of a Cricket Match") which is absolutely one of my favourite episodes in a novel ever:

"The pitch was by this time not only fast, but bumpy. Mr Simmonds' third delivery rose wickedly from a patch of bare earth and smote Mr Bredon [ie, Wimsey undercover] violently upon the elbow.
Nothing makes a man see red like a sharp rap over the funny-bone, and it was at this moment that Mr. Death Bredon suddenly and regrettably forgot himself... The next ball was another of Simmonds' murderous short-pitched bumpers, and Lord Peter Wimsey, opening up wrathful shoulders, strode out of his crease like the spirit of vengeance and whacked it to the wide."

The cadences of that last sentence alone make me want to cry. And then to cap it all, his cover is nearly blown by the elderly founder of the rival team's firm, who remembers seeing him make 112 for Oxford in 1911 and recognises him by his "exceedingly characteristic" late cut. :-)

And then there's William Scammell's poem "Cricket", from Five Easy Pieces, which gloriously describes Beefy thus:

Even Botham, heroic thumper,
commander of the heavenly clout
(whom God has in his wisdom made
both cannoneer and cannonade,
a one-man charge of the Heavy Brigade)
wears a helmet on his snout
to keep the grisly beamer out.

(I have never been able to watch footage of Botham, particularly in his later career, since without thinking "a one-man charge of the Heavy Brigade" and bursting into giggles.)

Oops, have entirely hijacked original subject of thread now. And broken my resolution about packing instead of footling on LJ. Going away to remedy this forthwith.

Edited Date: 2011-05-27 08:53 pm (UTC)

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Hee! I noticed your posts getting longer as the deadline for packing got shorter! What a wonderful paragraph! Do you remember the cricket matches from Antonia Forest's The Cricket Term? Particularly the one with the cries of: "Nemesis! Hubris!"

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[whistles nonchalantly - the packing did get done, somehow!]

I've never read Cricket Term - we don't have it at work for some reason and I don't think the county library has it either, though I must check that...

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Not one of the ones reprinted by Girls Gone By, alas, and even the paperbacks are going for silly money now (£30+).

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katlinel.livejournal.com

They are both so very good to one another. This is marvellously touching and I'm awed again that you can express so much, so delicately in so few words.

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