Heya heya

Aug. 14th, 2007 12:10 pm
altariel: (Default)
[personal profile] altariel
I've put off reading Le Guin's Always Coming Home for years, because I knew I wasn't ready for it. And then I knew that I was, and I loved it to bits, even though I keep waking up faintly depressed to remember that I don't in fact live in a world like that. Never mind, one day we shall have our commonwealth by the sea, where we shall gather to talk about books and cook locally-grown produce and evolve effective consensus-based decision-making processes.

I poked around online for reviews, and found this one which had various interesting things to say, but mostly I wanted to respond to the "flaws" which the review identifies in order to clarify some of my own thinking about the book. Basically, I'm going to gratuitously pick out a few choice quotes and then have a grump about them. Screw consensus-making, let's go with adversarial.

"the 'machina ex machina' of the City of Mind, a benevolent collection of machine intelligences which provides the Kesh and other peoples with all the positive benefits of science and technology (weather forecasts, global communication, etc.), while sparing them the need to devote resources to those ends."

But this seems to me to be a very specific point about inventing or using technology just because we can, or because it's there (no, thank you, I don't actually want a mobile phone). If existing technology provides a sufficiency of information to enable the good life... then why churn out more? (*cough*ipods*cough) As for it being a bit of a fiddle - hey, her Utopia, she gets to set the rules.

"the straw-man patriarchal and authoritarian society of the Dayao/Condor [...] is too extreme to be an interesting contrast to the Kesh (except polemically)

Call me easily scared, but I found the internal logic of the Condor all too convincing. Besides, the utopian genre is all about holding up mirror images to reflect back upon either the utopia itself or upon our own world - this is a very common device in the genre (More's Utopia does it as, indeed, does Le Guin's own The Dispossessed). Also, the Condor are very carefully constructed into the flow of Always Coming Home. I'm avoiding saying 'narrative flow' because the book surely isn't about linear narrative, and the Condor provide precisely the point of intersection between a holistic, hinging and ahistorical world, and a linear, progress-driven, historical world. The Condor are the means by which History threatens to intrude upon the Kesh (hence the emergence of the Warrior Lodge after the visit from the Condor). Stone Telling's story is one of the very few bits of straightforward narrative in the book. (We only get one chapter of a single novel.)

"I can't help thinking that things would be a little different if the Kesh were to face Julius Caesar and a single Roman legion, even with their technological inferiority."

But don't the Kesh have guns? I know they frown on hunting and so on, but wouldn't a couple of well-judged shots over the top of the testudos make a pretty clear point? I'll admit that this might start up the whole wheel of history again, Riddley Walker fashion, but isn't part of the idea here that, as with the information which can be retrieved from the Exchanges, the Kesh are selective and pragmatic in their choices about which technologies they'll use? Consistent with the "little country" in the Tao Te Ching, whose inhabitants also have machines which they choose not to use or be used by. (I've just been reading Le Guin's translation of this.)

Oh well, just some reflections, and surely grossly unfair to the reviewer to pick these out of context and then bounce off them. But then I like the end of Tehanu too (reviewer doesn't), so you can happily pay no attention to a word I say. My favourite bit of Always Coming Home, for what it's worth, is the list of "generative metaphors" at the back of the book.

Date: 2007-08-14 12:09 pm (UTC)
ext_12745: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lamentables.livejournal.com
I have tried to read it and failed. How did you assess your state of readiness?

Date: 2007-08-14 12:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
That's the kind of decision I make almost entirely intuitively, but I'd had it lying around for years - literally years - and had spent some time thinking about the idea of it. Which meant I was preparing myself for an attempt on it (I often do this with books, Riddley Walker was another one that I had to creep up on over the course of several years). I was also interested from a technical perspective in seeing how she went about doing the world-building (which is relevant to where I am in my writing at the moment).

And then I had a long-haul flight :-)

Date: 2007-08-14 12:35 pm (UTC)

Date: 2007-08-14 01:19 pm (UTC)

Date: 2007-08-14 12:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rfmcdpei.livejournal.com
Hi!

I'll have to take a look at this.

Date: 2007-08-14 01:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
Yes, do take a look!

Date: 2007-08-14 01:05 pm (UTC)
white_hart: (Default)
From: [personal profile] white_hart
Am intrigued by the idea of needing to be ready, as I read it when I was 13 and loved it. Mind you, when I was 13 I'd have happily read Le Guin's laundry lists if they'd been publically available, so that's probably not surprising.

I really must add to to the list of things I ought to re-read sometime.

Date: 2007-08-14 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
There are certain books which I know in advance are going to demand a specific kind of readerly commitment from me. And I need to prepare myself for: 1. the effort and 2. the possibility of some kind of shift in me at the end of the reading experience. So I often put them off until I have the time or the energy to do that psychological work.

Connected to this, and for a variety of other reasons, I barely read any fiction as a teenager. But Le Guin was one of the very few authors that I did read.

Date: 2007-08-14 02:58 pm (UTC)
ext_2208: image of romaine brooks self-portrait, text "Lila Futuransky" (heyiya if)
From: [identity profile] heyiya.livejournal.com
I read and adored ACH when I was 13 too (and also would have and would still happily read her laundry lists), but I don't know if it would have had anything like the same effect if I had read it as an adult and not as a blank slate, as it were. It isn't something I can really think about because I don't know I'd *be* the same adult I am today if I hadn't read ACH at that formative age; but I can well believe that there's a state of readiness required to be able to receive what that book can give you.

I've come across those criticisms of ACH before, and I agree with [livejournal.com profile] aethel's responses to them. I get so annoyed by critiques of utopias that base everything on whether the writer would enjoy living in them -- the 'I love technology, so there must be technology-love in the utopia' attack, or the 'patriarchal societies are efficient and effective in the history I read, so if they're there they must take over the world' attack. It's levelled at The Dispossessed too -- but both those books are about how our desires and the process of history would be *different* given a different set of premises. The love of technology in and of itself, for example, is conditioned by a whole set of assumptions filtered through capitalism that would be alien to the Kesh.

That said, I still don't know quite what to do with the accusations of cultural appropriation I've seen levelled at ACH. When I read it, I had no idea that so many of the practices and ideas had been practiced in the real world by indigenous American peoples; is that a problem? I have a complicated set of opinions about cultural appropriation in general, but I don't really feel qualified to say one way or the other regarding ACH; if there are problems with Le Guin's adoption of Native American tropes, that doesn't invalidate the profound effect the book had on me, but it does change the way I see it now. Which is why I feel a little ambivalent about my username...

Date: 2007-08-14 03:11 pm (UTC)
white_hart: (Default)
From: [personal profile] white_hart
I don't know I'd *be* the same adult I am today if I hadn't read ACH at that formative age

Yes, I think I could probably say much the same thing. There are ideas from the book that I have internalised very deeply; some that I'm aware of and, I suspect, some whose source I no longer remember.

Date: 2007-08-14 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
I think the book that's similarly interwoven in my own life is The Lord of the Rings. Responding to what's worthwhile in it and coming to understand what's flawed about it has kept me intermittently busy for about twenty-five years.

On the efficiency and effectiveness of patriarchies: I've only read reviews of Jared Diamond's Collapse but I wonder if there might be some resonances with that in the way ACH attributes the decline of the Condor in part to their misuse of resources...

I wouldn't begin to know how to judge the issue of cultural appropriation. Do you have any links to hand to discussions of ACH in this context? (Not wanting you to 'do my homework', of course! - I just wondered if you knew something off the top of your head which was worth looking at.)

Date: 2007-08-14 11:35 pm (UTC)
ext_2208: image of romaine brooks self-portrait, text "Lila Futuransky" (heyiya if)
From: [identity profile] heyiya.livejournal.com
I'm sorry I typed your name as [livejournal.com profile] aethel! I don't know how I did that...

Re: cultural appropriation, the essay that first brought it up for me was an essay in Foundation by Elyce Rae Helford, which I don't think is available online. I'll find the reference, maybe a couple of others too, and get back to you.

Date: 2007-08-16 10:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
I liked [livejournal.com profile] aethel! It made me feel like an Anglo-Saxon prioress, or else Dot Cotton's best friend.

Thank you for the Elyce Rae Helford reference - I'm fairly certain the uni library here carries Foundation. Much appreciated.

Date: 2007-08-16 02:31 pm (UTC)
ext_2208: image of romaine brooks self-portrait, text "Lila Futuransky" (Default)
From: [identity profile] heyiya.livejournal.com
The reference:

Helford, Elyce Rae. “Going ‘Native’: Le Guin, Misha, and the Politics of Speculative Literature.” Foundation: The International Review of Science Fiction, no. 71 (autumn 1997): 77-88.

I've seen similar concerns raised elsewhere about the novel, too. As I said, I am on the fence about this; the small amount of reading I've done in Native Studies isn't enough education to tell quite how problematic Le Guin's very thoughtful rewriting of culture is.

Date: 2007-08-21 02:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
Ah, this is excellent - thank you very much for this. It seems to be one of the back issues still available as well.

Date: 2007-08-15 01:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalimac.livejournal.com
I read and adored ACH when I was 13 too

My first thought is, how fortunate you were. I did not read it at 13 because it had not been published yet. Like Altariel's, my book at that age was The Lord of the Rings.

I don't know if it would have had anything like the same effect if I had read it as an adult and not as a blank slate

So what I can say, having read ACH as an adult already thoroughly familiar with all of UKL's work to that point, is that hardly ever has a new work, by an author I already loved, struck me with such immediate force. (Usually the work already known wins my affection by familiarity, and the new work has to grow on me, but not this time.) "This is her masterpiece," I said, and I still think that might be true.

Date: 2007-08-15 07:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
"This is her masterpiece," I said, and I still think that might be true.

Yes, this was my reaction too (also coming from a background of familiarity with a fair amount of UKL's work).

Date: 2007-08-14 01:53 pm (UTC)
ext_15855: (Paradise)
From: [identity profile] lizblackdog.livejournal.com
Oh Lord, I haven't read that in years - decades, actually - and I loved it so. And I was so young then, and at least 75% of it must have gone right over my head. I must get hold of it again.

Have you ever read Unquenchable Fire by Rachel Pollack? I recommend it.

Date: 2007-08-14 03:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
I haven't heard of the Rachel Pollack book. What put it in your mind, in the context of Always Coming Home?

Date: 2007-08-14 05:31 pm (UTC)
ext_15855: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lizblackdog.livejournal.com
The sense of utopia, the world-building, the mythology, the stories within stories and the way it's another book that you can read repeatedly and never, ever get tired of - the sense of awe, in fact. I believe it's out of print but I got a copy second-hand via Amazon fairly easily and cheaply.

Pollack's chiefly known for writing non-fictional books about Tarot; she's done three works of fiction that I know of: Unquenchable Fire, Temporary Agency and Alqua Dreams. Temporary Agency is the same setting as Unquenchable Fire, but is somewhat lighter reading; I have read Alqua Dreams but for some reason it didn't "take" and I recall very little about it.

Date: 2007-08-14 07:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
They sound really good - I'll keep an eye out (there's good secondhand book turnover around here).

On books that don't "take", The Farthest Shore was a book which I read several times and could barely remember what happened in it - and then, bam. Suddenly it made sense.

Date: 2007-08-14 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katlinel.livejournal.com
I love Unquenchable Fire and if it doesn't turn up in your vicinity, I can lend it to you. I also have Temporary Agency, which comprises two novellas set in the same world as Unquenchable Fire.

I think you posted somewhere recently about the significance of religious imagery in what you've been reading and watching recently, and Unquenchable Fire would fit well with that. And she's added a lot of background story within the story, that tells you about the alternative-world-to-now that she's created.

Date: 2007-08-14 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katlinel.livejournal.com
She's also written another novel called Godmother Night (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Godmother-Night-Rachel-Pollack/dp/0349108366/ref=sr_1_2/202-7462863-5523866?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187123015&sr=1-2).

I hadn't heard of Alqua Dreams so thank you for mentioning it. I love her other novels, so I'm delighted to know there's another one waiting for me to read.

Date: 2007-08-14 08:34 pm (UTC)
ext_15855: (Default)
From: [identity profile] lizblackdog.livejournal.com
And I didn't know Godmother Night existed either! Thank you!

Date: 2007-08-14 08:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katlinel.livejournal.com
Everybody wins! Yay!

Date: 2007-08-14 08:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oracne.livejournal.com
GODMOTHER NIGHT is really good, but also very dark. It made me sad.

Date: 2007-08-14 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oracne.livejournal.com
I second the rec for UNQUENCHABLE FIRE. Pollack rocks.

Date: 2007-08-14 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
Name is duly noted!

Date: 2007-08-14 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jhall1.livejournal.com
That book is a gap in my reading, so I didn't read the bit beneath the cut for fear of spoilers. I agree with you in liking the end of Tehanu. Have you read Tales from Earthsea or The Other Wind yet? Both are highly recommended.

And whilst I'm on LeGuin recs, I'll throw in The Telling and The Birthday of the World, plus an early book of hers for "young adults" that seems remarkably little known but which is possibly my favourite of all her work: Threshold, alternative title The Beginning Place.

Date: 2007-08-14 07:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
I enjoyed both Tales from Earthsea and The Other Wind very much, but the others are definitely gaps in my reading.

Date: 2007-08-14 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katlinel.livejournal.com
Threshold is another one that seems to turn up frequently in second-hand places, so I'll keep my eyes open. Or you can borrow it too. :-)

Date: 2007-08-16 11:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
Ooh, if you kept an eye out for it, that would be great. I daren't borrow any more books from you until I return at least some of the current selection!

Date: 2007-08-20 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katlinel.livejournal.com
No problem - I will definitely do so.

Date: 2007-08-15 01:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalimac.livejournal.com
The Beginning Place (I use the US title, though I believe Threshold is in fact the author's preference) is a very powerful book that I think works best as an examination of the effect on the reader of reading fantasy. When Hugh and Irene enter the Ain Country, they are essentially doing what a reader does when immersing herself in a fantasy story. Reading the book that way explains a lot of the aspects that have puzzled some people.

Date: 2007-08-15 09:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jhall1.livejournal.com
I'm glad to have found a fellow fan of the book. :) Though the book obviously has a allegorical element, I hadn't thought of it as an allegory for the experience of reading fantasy. It's an interesting idea.

Date: 2007-08-15 07:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalimac.livejournal.com
I don't like that word, "allegory." It implies the work has no function other than to stand for something else. No one pretends that Animal Farm, in the book of the same name, is anything other than a code for the USSR. Le Guin's is a much more layered book than that. But other than that, yes: why do the characters crave the experience of crossing the threshold so much? What do they get by going there? And why, in the end, do they leave it and return to the reality they started from?

Date: 2007-08-15 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalimac.livejournal.com
Oh, and have you read UKL's story "The Pathways of Desire"?

Date: 2007-08-15 07:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jhall1.livejournal.com
I think so, as on checking I see that it was in her collection The Compass Rose, which I think that I've read. But it must have been over twenty years ago, so I'm afraid that the title of the story no longer rings any bells.

Date: 2007-08-16 11:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
It's a terrific story, one of my favourites of hers. I love that collection.

Date: 2007-08-16 02:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalimac.livejournal.com
I just mentioned "The Pathways of Desire" because it's directly relevant to what I was saying about The Beginning Place/Threshold.

Date: 2007-08-14 08:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katlinel.livejournal.com
Sorry, I appear to be littering this post with comments.

It's a long time since I've read Always Coming Home, but I loved it at the time. I need to go back and re-read it.

one day we shall have our commonwealth by the sea, where we shall gather to talk about books and cook locally-grown produce and evolve effective consensus-based decision-making processes.

I definitely want to re-read this in light of your comments about utopia/dystopia and how they're used.

Cooking and books are the best way to save the world. Particularly from royalist alien werewolves.

But then I like the end of Tehanu too (reviewer doesn't)

Me too. Silly reviewer.

Date: 2007-08-16 11:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
Litter away! I'd love to get your impressions of ACH on rereading.

Date: 2007-08-20 07:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katlinel.livejournal.com
*pulls ACH off shelf*

I remember Stone Telling, and liking her story, and her name, very much indeed. There's a bit in one of the Chalet School books, where one of the girls gets hold of a book on names, and another one is disappointed to learn that her name means "stone maiden", which I remember thinking was a brilliant meaning to have for a name, and much better than one derived from false etymology, as the commonly given meaning for my name is.

And there's a bit I picked out when [livejournal.com profile] communicator was asking for SF monologues from The Wedding Night at Chukulmas, the Grandmother's speech that begins "You have been walking in the hearth, girl; there's ash on your feet." from the Dramatic Works section. For some reason I remembered that.

Date: 2007-08-15 01:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalimac.livejournal.com
The problem with Yee's review may be found in his sentence, "As a utopia, it has some major flaws."

This has been a blind spot for many of ACH's critics. The book is not a utopia, if by that you mean, "a blueprint for an ideal civilization." The Kesh are materially poor, they have hostile neighbors, they quarrel among themselves (see "The Third Child's Story", one of the most bitter things I've ever read), they suffer from crippling genetic disease and an appalling environmental destruction, and so on.

What they are doing is finding a way to live a good life in the circumstances in which they find themselves.

Of course Yee is correct that a soulless Roman legion would make short work of the Kesh, and if it did there'd be no story. But the point is that they're not facing a Roman legion. The Condor are a different type of masculinist, and Stone Telling's father a miliary man of rare sensitivity (not unknown, and others of his kind can be found in Le Guin's fiction - see Voices and Four Ways to Forgiveness).

Someone pointed out to Gandhi that his non-violent resistance wouldn't have worked against the Nazis. He knew that; but his target wasn't the Nazis. His method of protest was designed to work against a people with a conscience.

Date: 2007-08-16 02:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] altariel.livejournal.com
The book is not a utopia, if by that you mean, "a blueprint for an ideal civilization."

I think I'd be content to describe ACH as a utopia. It certainly has several of the markers of a utopian text: the 'mirroring' that I mentioned in my original post, the visitor from outside to whom aspects of the society are explained, descriptions of social organization, and so on. 'Utopia' often contains ambiguity, it needn't be wholly idealized.

Date: 2007-08-16 06:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalimac.livejournal.com
That's why Le Guin labeled The Dispossessed "an ambiguous utopia," because she didn't want anyone to take Anarres (or Urras, for that matter) as her blueprint for an ideal society. And indeed most commentary I've seen on the book avoids that.

But look at ACH: she issues the same warning, but it's hidden in the book (see "Pandora Addresses the Reader with Agitation" and "Pandora Converses with the Archivist"), but people ignore that, and criticize the book for failing to do something it's not intended to do, to wit: depict an ideal society.

That's why the problem is with the word "utopia."

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