So, the Potter thing

[altariel]

I don't have any particular investment in the Harry Potter books or fandom beyond picking up the books when they come out, and going to see the films roughly around the time they arrive. But obviously I was going to read it this weekend like nearly everyone else (although mraltariel for one just read the Wikipedia summary instead).

After the last one, I'd massaged my expectations and investment right down. So I ended up thoroughly enjoying this one. I still think Prisoner of Azkaban is the best, but I thought this was the most coherent of the really long ones. I page-turned all weekend, and not in the "If-I-hurry-up-it-will-be-over-sooner" way in which I read Half-Blood Prince. I was genuinely excited and moved at various points. I wish we could get those last few books now that she's learned how to handle a longer narrative.

Specific things...

Ah, Neville. We always knew you were the hero, really. By far my favourite bit of the story. At last you were able to come into your own. I loved how your school story was still going on in the background, while we were elsewhere with some slightly less interesting people. You did your mum and dad and granny proud, and you will be a great headmaster of Hogwarts one day.

I liked the Dumbledore backstory, and thought the flashback scenes between Snape and Dumbledore were particularly successful. It wasn't much of a surprise that Snape was going to turn out to be complexly-good, but it was nicely done.

I shielded my eyes at all mentions of Lupin and Tonks. But who brought up Teddy Lupin? Was that in there? I missed it and it worries me.

toft_froggy has it right about Slytherin (scroll down to point 7 on the list but the whole post is great).

So, all in all, it delivered according the degree of to my investment. So I suppose I can't complain. It was a lot of fun to know that most of you were reading it at the same time. And now I can get on with other things.

What did you think?

Comments

[applegnat.livejournal.com]

Enjoyed it too, although possibly a little less than HBP given that Albus Dumbledore was dead for most of it - EXCEPT when he was with his awesome pretty little Hitler-friend. I loved those flashbacks and the Brontean family background. I especially enjoyed the roadtrippy bits.

My god, though, it was as bloody as an Elizabethan drain.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

My god, though, it was as bloody as an Elizabethan drain.

I was astonished at the Hedwig-slaying. And both Remus and Tonks seemed fairly harsh.

Love that icon vastly...

[windswept1.livejournal.com]

But who brought up Teddy Lupin?

I wondered too. tonks' mother I guess. and I suppose the girl he's kisisng at the platform is Bill and Fleur's daughter.

I liked it too, and I agree she's finally figured how to handle a longer narrative about 2 books too late.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

After HBP, I thought it could have been so much worse - and it wasn't. Can't complain.

[fictualities.livejournal.com]

On the whole I really enjoyed it, though there were parts that threw me a bit. A big howling YES on Neville -- it was so cool to see him in action, and his gran too! Yay! And what a wonderful headmaster he would make, absolutely.

I'm with toftfroggy about Slytherin. Rowling wants incompatible things, I think -- an ethic of reconciliation in a narrative largely driven psychologically by a sense of rivalry. Sometimes this crazed hodge-podge gives her gold (the Ron plot in HP7 -- only a writer who really GETS envy could give us such a moving and realistic character arc.) But sometimes the hodge-podge just doesn't hang together all that well (the continued Slytherin-baiting in the brave new wizarding world). Oh well; she's given us much, it seems churlish to demand perfection.

[espresso-addict.livejournal.com]

Yes, the Ron plot was surprisingly good (spoken as one who has never before got Ron, and [being ancient] has previously found all the teens rather dull).

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Rowling wants incompatible things, I think -- an ethic of reconciliation in a narrative largely driven psychologically by a sense of rivalry.

That's a very useful way of thinking about it - thanks!

[toft-froggy.livejournal.com]

Gosh, you finished it! You must have read fairly solidly after I left. I was so happy when Neville turned up, and I did feel massively proud of him, in a rather maternal way - he was always the one we wanted to win, I would have been heartbroken if he'd died. I still wish we'd seen more of all of that stuff going on at school. In the cold light of day, I still have very mixed feelings about the book - I was up half the night crying about Snape, I'm ashamed to say. I really shouldn't read these things late at night.

I'm also amused that pretty much the only consistent reaction to the book (which have been fairly mixed across my flist - overall people seemed to have liked it but they've given very different reasons) has been, "But who raised Teddy?". The consensus seems to be, Tonks' mother, who didn't die, as far as we know. But it didn't say. I suppose if he's pulled Victoire and hasn't been adopted by Harry and Ginny he can't have it too bad.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

*hugs you hard because of the Snape* Here is possibly consoling fic.

I read solidly after you went - got just past halfway last night, and then wrote off this morning, because I wasn't going to get anything done until it was finished.

On Teddy Lupin: I imagine him being passed around his various well-meaning semi-relatives until he goes to Hogwarts, whereupon he transforms himself into the coolest kid in the school. He is kissing Victoire at the end just before saying, "Come on, doll, let's bail this lousy town," and they roar off on their motorbikes into the Muggle-world, forfeiting their magic and becoming vastly successful (she as a fearsome lawyer, he as a sensitive and brilliant English Lit professor, fantasy his speciality of course). Ahem. That's what's going on in my head, at any rate.

[toft-froggy.livejournal.com]

Yay! Teddy Lupin = Marlon Brando! I'd actually prefer it if they became serial killers and went on the lam, Badlands stylee. That would be cool.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I love that film!

[altariel.livejournal.com]

the only consistent reaction to the book [...] has been, "But who raised Teddy?"

PS: Because, as your post makes clear, if he has Ron banging on about purebloods in his ear as he's growing up, it kind of negates his parents' sacrifices - particularly poor Remus the outcast.

[espresso-addict.livejournal.com]

Snape plainly didn't die. A potions master, with years of knowing his likely end will involve snake venom? And I think those memories were probably faked to mess with Harry's head.

[toft-froggy.livejournal.com]

HA. Oh, that's brilliant! The ultimate twist - Snape really is evil!

[altariel.livejournal.com]

The Hallows plot did sit oddly. I felt it had structural integrity, actually - if you see the book as two separate quests, Harry chasing the Horcruxes while Voldemort chases the Hallows (and Harry tempted to switch quest partway through). But it all didn't quite hang together.

So glad you enjoyed it. And that you can see where the fanfic will go!

[erinya-dhaunae.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who wondered about Teddy Lupin. The answers already proposed do seem the most feasible. As for Victoire, I also assumed she was Bill and Fleur's. Firstly, because of the French name, and secondly because there was some mention about him becoming quite literally a member of the family (rather than presumably a honorary member) if he married her. However, unless I missed something, there was no definitive answer to any of that given.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I hope some good Teddy Lupin fanfic turns up. Oh, what am I saying, I'm sure it has already! I also assumed Victoire was Bill and Fleur's, but only because Wikipedia said so.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I thought the scene in the forest was also very touching. I wish Peter Pettigrew had found sufficient redemption to be there too.

[espresso-addict.livejournal.com]

Indeed, it was so much better than HBP, not to mention that OotP thing, that it made my teeth ache with longing...

The Dumbledore backstory was my favourite bit, particularly that the Skeeter Daily Mail Prophet Revelations weren't as far out as one might have imagined, but strangely I also enjoyed the Redemption for Kreacher subplot.

Now I'm wondering whether I'll manage to stay in a fandom where all my favourite characters are canonically dead. I've not managed it before (credits deaths don't count), but who knows.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Now I'm wondering whether I'll manage to stay in a fandom where all my favourite characters are canonically dead. I've not managed it before

Blake's 7?!?

[espresso-addict.livejournal.com]

As I said, credits deaths don't count -- Avon was still standing at the end.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see. Funny to think of something outbleaking B7.

[brendan-moody.livejournal.com]

Major Potter nut here. I really liked it. I also had more problems with it structurally than with any previous book, but most of them are things I can't really bring myself to complain about in a children's book. (Someone summed it up by pointing out that her "metaphysical logic" was a bit fuzzy.) Her prose is rather flat, but if I can forgive the hopeless writing of L. Frank Baum I can forgive this.

I think the thing with Slytherin, as with all the bloodshed, is that Rowling largely avoids pleasant but hopelessly unrealistic resolutions. A lesser writer would have had an epilogue that went "And all the house-elves were freed, and the giants and goblins made peace with humans, and pureblood racism disappeared, and Hogwarts gave up its house structure..." It's far more likely, I think, that twenty years on a traditionalist society would have grown little if at all. Harry's children, or their children, might plausibly be agents of change.

[kerravonsen]

Harry's children, or their children, might plausibly be agents of change.

I think Hermione's children would be more likely, actually.

[brendan-moody.livejournal.com]

Right enough; I was referring to which generation rather than whose specific kids.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Very interesting points, particularly on what the pace of change would be like. I'm perhaps not as willing as you are to forgive fuzziness in metaphysical logic simply on the grounds that she writes children's books. Many children's writers manage metaphysical crystal clarity: Ursula Le Guin for one, Philip Pullman for another. If anything, I think clarity is more important in children's books. Several of my friends haven't forgiven CS Lewis for the metaphysical fast one they feel he pulled on them.

[brendan-moody.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I haven't read enough Le Guin to comment on her work- the spare style of the Earthsea books has never quite engaged me- but I think generally it's a question of the sort of universe being created. It's certainly true that I wouldn't forgive any children's writer for such fuzziness. Rowling's magical world is far cruder and more childish than Pullman's; it has, for me at least, a fundamentally absurdist slant that leaves room for dodgy metaphysics. A bit closer to Lewis Carroll or Baum than to Philip Pullman, if you like.

In the most obvious example of his stunt hiring policy, Russell Davies once asked J.K. Rowling if she'd like to write an episode of Doctor Who. I mention this because I think her approach in this book has in common with Who a certain metaphysical vagueness supplemented by an emotional/moral clarity.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I think generally it's a question of the sort of universe being created. It's certainly true that I wouldn't forgive any children's writer for such fuzziness.

Fair point :-)

On Rusty and Rowling: I agree that Rusty appears gleefully untroubled by the Big Questions, but with great emotional and moral truth that more than compensates.

But "moral unclarity" actually sums up Rowling for me. The universe (as opposed to the books) does engage me, but at the same time I'm always left feeling uneasy. fictualities gets to the root of some of my unease up-thread, but I haven't quite worked it all out yet.

[brendan-moody.livejournal.com]

Both my mother and I were literally a bit queasy on finishing the book. It struck me the other night that in this book Rowling constructed a situation so bleak that a Voldemort victory was inevitable, and only averted it with a ridiculous amount of narrative contrivance. Which leaves me thinking that really Voldemort ought to have won. I referred above to Rowling "largely" avoiding unrealistic resolutions, but realism would require, if not Voldemort's victory, than at least an irresolvable case of PTSD for most of the characters.

I think Rowling's absurdist universe is an awkward fit with the darker material in the last few books; a world like hers ought to have the sort of purely virtuous characters and easy victories one gets in Philosopher's Stone and Chamber of Secrets. The evolution of the series from light to dark is one of its more interesting features, but by the end it's honestly a few steps away from nihilism. I'm tempted to play amateur psychologist and analyze Rowling's comment that her mother's death early on in the writing of the series was a major influence on its development, but I should be cautious about that.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I didn't know about her mother's death, that's an interesting point. The death of Tolkien's mother (when he was very young) echoes throughout his books.

I read a comment online that so much had to be crammed into this last book, that a lot of the more dramatic stuff has to be summarized, really. Which doesn't leave much scope for examining the trauma which, as you rightly say, would most likely affect many of the characters afterwards.

[gair.livejournal.com]

I can't read it till I finish the story, so I've been listening to gerald writhing in agony and reading me out the stupidest bits. I think I have a slightly skewed view of the plot now (well, I'm pretty sure that "Ron and Hermione and Harry spend four months having ever-more-inventive threesomes" is not canon). G is writing what looks like an epic review,* though, which I'm looking forward to (it will end her "not posting to LJ" resolution in record time...)

*before I even got my coffee this morning, I got treated to a lengthy summary of the Dumbledore backstory and the line I was up till two a.m. trying to sort out what these Horcruxes are! Because she's not a writer and she can't signpost!

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that "Ron and Hermione and Harry spend four months having ever-more-inventive threesomes" is not canon

Perhaps "inventive" was the giveaway there.

I'm dying to read gerald's review, and can't think of a better excuse to break LJ silence. mraltariel read me mightygodthing's hilarious page by page review, which sadly appears to have resulted in the suspension of that journal, gah.

I also lost track of the Horcruxes. I was surprised there wasn't a: "Previously, in Harry Potter..." section at the start - even Tolkien has those.

[katlinel.livejournal.com]

I couldn't be bothered to re-read HBP, so I couldn't remember at all how many horcruxes there were, and just decided it didn't matter at all. They were chasing after some thingies.

At points, I wished it was structured like LotR with different stories interweaving. I really did want more about the final year at Hogwarts for Harry's year. The bits with the Death Eaters weren't enough.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I thought there were seven, and then I thought there were five, and then I thought there were seven again. I think there are seven, but only if you count Zen and Orac. Oh hang on...

[katlinel.livejournal.com]

And a merry Christmas to you all.

I think they're following the laws of Bistromathics.

[rfmcdpei.livejournal.com]

The novel felt like a worthy completion of the saga to me, even if I wasn't sure about it on first read-through. There are certain inconsistencies, but I don't think Rowling can be accused of excessive sentimentality, which, really, is all I'd wanted out of the novel.

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

It was a satisfying end to the series overall, I thought, and typical of Rowling's work: the good parts are very very good indeed, and the rest has you pulling your hair out in frustration. Because she decided to tell the series srticltly from Harry's POV, in this book half of the most interesting stuff is occurring offstage while our Heroic Threesome is off on an extended camping trip in the middle of nowhere, and after the big finale we find out that nothing's really changed in the end: the Hogwart's destructive sorting tradition remains intact, and Slytherin is still the House of Eeevil.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

the good parts are very very good indeed, and the rest has you pulling your hair out in frustration

Hence the vast amount of fanfic!

I agree a lot of interesting stuff is happening offstage: Neville's Rebellion in particular.

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

I would have given a lot to see scenes from Neville's POV at Hogwarts (as well as McGonigall's and Snape's). And Percy's POV would have been a good one as well, since he was in a perfect position to watch the rapid transformation of the Ministry into a full-blown totalitarian organization run by Voldemort's flunkies. Alas, we were stuck with Harry watching the leaves fall of the trees in between bouts of quarrelling with Ron and Hermione.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I assume there's some Neville fanfic out there by now, although I haven't gone looking. Percy's POV is an excellent idea - because he's good at heart, I think, he's just trying to differentiate himself in the middle of that huge family.