The Turn of the Tide again

[altariel]

I posted a Tolkien fanfic the other day called The Turn of the Tide. It's a short AU which takes as its premise the idea that Faramir went north instead of Boromir. Its focus is on Éowyn in the Houses of Healing, but in various discussions, people have wondered about other aspects of this AU setting.

Raksha, on this thread, had some wonderful thoughts about the journey to Mordor (which, in this setting, involves Frodo, Sam, Gollum, and Faramir).

The original request, from Makamu, offered me bonus points if I could get one or both of Boromir or Denethor to interact with Aragorn... sadly, I didn't quite manage this.

But... I would love to see more stories in this setting, but I'm unlikely to manage them myself! So this post is to invite ideas and - better still - to invite stories!

Comments

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

I read your ficlet and the following discussion. It is all as happy as anyone could wish; and it gave me an image of Boromir intercepting Faramir and hobbits in Ithilien: he learns of their errand and Isildur's bane, gets mad for a while; asymmetric swordfight follows, Frodo puts ring on and Boromir gets back to his sences just in time before killing his brother over Isildur's bane. And lets them go, terryfied.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Ouch, yes, that would be really dramatic and intense. And what would the meeting between the brothers be like afterwards?

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Nothing specific? Faramir is forgiving, and Boromir already had enough by the time they meet, including dear Daddy's disappointment and the new King. I had some ideas for what happened before. I don't think there were anything interesting before Lorien (less bickering between two great Men?). At Amon Hen Faramir follows Frodo, as Boromir did, but to convince the Ringbearer to split the Fellowship and go to Mordor and offers his protection (and I don't think he is so much excited about personally bringing Aragorn to Denethor's city); since Saruman's Orks meant to kidnap Marry and Pippin anyway, it is not so important nobody protected them (or Agarorn could have tried for that matter, so their trust in big folks is not completely ruined). And I guess Aragorn is not very comfortable about Faramir leaving in all that hassle with the Ringbearer -- not sure if he is trustworthy enough. Because even if they ever discussed the power of the Ring, Faramir wouldn't mention that "his Lady will not have him the traitor and the tyrant" -- too personal, but sure could have convinced Aragorn, had F. known... Smth like that. Sorry for my English.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I really like your insights into the early relationship between Aragorn and Faramir: I think you're right that it would be less abrasive than between Aragorn and Boromir, but there would probably be that sense of doubt (which the proximity of the Ring probably doesn't help). I can absolutely imagine Faramir not being keen on being the one to bring Aragorn to Denethor. Your English is great.

[lame-pegasus.livejournal.com]

The original request, from Makamu, offered me bonus points if I could get one or both of Boromir or Denethor to interact with Aragorn... sadly, I didn't quite manage this.

My goodness, this is an idea truly worth to be written (and I'm sorely tempted to give it a try). Hmmmm... if I manage a short tale, I might succeed... and if you allow, of course.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Go for it! I'd love to see any stories that emerged from the premise.

[jhall1.livejournal.com]

If Faramir went with Frodo and Sam, then one wonders what impact that would have had on the fate of Merry and Pippin when the orcs came upon them and there was no Boromir around.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Excellent point - I hadn't thought of that at all. It really does show how when you tweak at one thread in Tolkien's narrative, it can affect the whole thing.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

I think they still will be kidnaped. With Boromir at Denethor's side and Foromir safe away in Mordor, there is no part for Pippin to play in Minas Tirith, but we cannot have it all, can we? Still, there is a problem with timing: hobbits probably moved faster with Faramir, and we have to tweak something in the others' part to make sure they are at Morannon in time. And that thread is limited by Aragorn's speed: he runs and rides as fast as possible from Amon Hen to Cormallen for two books.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I think Boromir and Eowyn between them now provide some of what Pippin provided.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

What I was saying, is that Pippin has an important role in cannon: he looks in palantir and provokes Sauron, and he saves Faramir. I somehow doubt Denethor would have sent Boromir to die, even being mad and disappointed, so in FaramirgoestoMordor AU Pippin has no errand in South. I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

You were clear, I was just playing with ideas :-) I wonder what role we could give to Pippin now? Perhaps if Merry still has his special relationship with Theoden, Pippin might have a special relationship with Eowyn? Or perhaps he goes for some reasons with Aragorn on the Paths of the Dead.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

If he does look in the Palantir, he cannot go with Aragorn (and there is not much for him to do anyway), but he still can be used to soften Denethor.
Timing still bothers me. Unless ringbearers linger longer in in Ithilien (Hurins brothers reunions are always warm an fluffy, but the presence of the Ring), I don't see how all thing is orchestered.
Just another disturbing image: Eowyn does and says almost exactely the same things she did in canon, looks desperate, watches sea-eyed Dunedain, etc.; Aragorn isn't vain, but the air in Edoras is thick with suppressed longing, and he misrecognizes (not a word) Eowyn's distress as affection. Rated for possibilities of miscommunication and silent mutual embarrasement. I wonder if Eomer knows.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

the air in Edoras is thick with suppressed longing

Oh, that's beautifully put. I would love to see this scene between Aragorn and Eowyn written. Would she confide in him about Faramir, do you think?

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

She could, but I think she rather would not. First, the embarrasement, and second, at this point both are uneasy about Faramir: Aragorn still doesn't know if Faramir helps Frodo or succumbed to the Ring (I think, after he looks in the Palantir and knows that Ring isn't "activated" yet by anyone, he's past doubt), and Eowyn is bitter: he didn't come back to her but went into shadows for some trinket. Besides, if she did confede, she will be less tensed and depressed than she goes with the army, and the story needs this angst :). I think I'm trying to develop this story so it stays as close as possible to canon.
Do you think Eomer knows about Faramir? Or Eowyn is so used to be secretive (and Faramir, too), and so angry for being left by Theoden's side, she wouldn't care to confide?
Somebody at SoA started a F.goestoRivendel story, and there is a beautiful scene between Faramir and Grima. Maybe Eowyn is less afraid of Grima now.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Besides, if she did confede, she will be less tensed and depressed than she goes with the army, and the story needs this angst :)

Excellent point! :-D

And you're right that keeping to canon is the best idea.

I think Eomer doesn't know, partly because of the reasons you suggest, also Eowyn would not tell him because of that atmosphere of mistrust you describe. Not that she distrusts her brother, but because she doesn't want to share anything that might possibly compromise him if Wormtongue later found out.

I would love to see this all of this in story form: set in a candle-lit Meduseld with dark corners and people always listening. (Including Denethor!) Wonderful!

Do you have a link for that AU story? I'd be interested to see that Grima and Faramir scene.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Maybe Eowyn didn't declare her love? Say, Faramir told her about his love and left, and she realized what it meant to her when he's gone. She is proud, depressed, young and clueless, and why trust anyone?

By the way, how does Eomer in canon knows about Aragorn? He doesn't strike me as a very subtle or perceptive man. Theoden could have guessed (he almost says as much comforting Eowyn in Dunharrow), or it's just that Eomer feels the same [awed hero-worshiping, no slashy implications from me]. Or he is as desperate to marry her off away from Grima's grasp as she is herself.

Unfortunately (or fortunately for my real-life obligations) I'm no writer. But I'm going to post (in my LJ and in English) the summary of forking points in LOTR, hoping people may want to contribute to lines they like.

The story in progress is by Peredhel, "Better Choice".
Here's the link:

http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterlistview.asp?SID=4863

Yet another thing about this AU: how does F. fit in Frodo-Sam-Gollum team? Do they avoid Shelob? Or maybe we'll have to kill off good loyal Sam because Faramir can be just as good and loyal and physically stronger? Or both hobbits get cought?

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the link to Peredhel's story, I enjoyed it. I hope it gets updated soon.

Maybe Eowyn didn't declare her love? Say, Faramir told her about his love and left, and she realized what it meant to her when he's gone.

I imagined them making a secret engagement ("the last, secret conversation; his offer and her acceptance"). She might well have accepted out of desperation ("anything to get me out of here") and only later realized what it meant to her.

By the way, how does Eomer in canon knows about Aragorn? He doesn't strike me as a very subtle or perceptive man.

He says that he didn't think anything was wrong with Eowyn until she set eyes on Aragorn: I think her behaviour becomes more transparent here (throwing herself at Aragorn's feet) she really is in the depths of despair. She's kept it all bottled up until then, but I suppose that kind of behaviour is going to attract notice even from the relatively unperceptive.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

You are welcome!

Yes, maybe she accepted first only in despreration. That looks more credible fpr her than true love in two days. We know she can fall in love in seconds, and I imagine the impression was very similar, but it is explicitly said is not the real thing.

I cannot imagine this fortified Ringbearers team. All big folks' dealings with halflings are very confused.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Do you think Sam might mistrust Faramir in the way that he originally mistrusts Strider? He might later pick up on Aragorn's uncertainty about whether or not to trust Faramir, and side very loyally with Sam. That might be the storyline: Faramir having to prove his trustworthiness to Sam.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

And side very loyally with -- ? Aragorn, probably. Yes, it can be very tense stryline. With Faramir's inner voices struggling with the Ring's voice, all in italic for pages to no end. And it gets only worse after Sam had the Ring himself for a while.
[And let Faramir shoot Gollum at the edge of the creek with an orkish arrow -- not the good taste, but lots of things going. Or! Faramit shoots them while Frod and Gollum are fighting. And Sam knows that was needed but never forgives Faramir... I not going there, it's turning angsty]

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Aragorn, yes (sorry, was scribbling notes between bits of work yesterday). I am very taken with this storyline and I wish someone would write it!

How far would Faramir be tempted to seize the Ring, like Boromir tried to do? And when would it be most likely to happen? At the point at which he's closest to Minas Tirith? In Mordor, when the situation is desperate? Or would it be less likely after he's seen Boromir again (extra strength for the journey)? Or would he remain outwardly in control throughout, just internally struggling?

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

> wish someone would write it.

better you then me.

As I imagine Faramir's ambitions are not only on Minath Tirish's survival, I think it would be worst at some point than Frodo is tired and desperate. I think the Ring tells him to ease Frodo's burden, maybe even to give him a mercy of death... I don't think he will lose control, just keep brooding and struggling over the watches. Maybe talking to Gollum to keep eye on the mean creature (be the way, the only AUmovie's episode with Faramir that made any sense to me was then he askes Gollum "that did they take"). Telling him tales and taming him, as any sapience or not he meets (and Sam gets only more suspicious).

I remember your F.A. story there Faramir has post traumatic disorder or the like. It's going to be worse this time.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I remember your F.A. story there Faramir has post traumatic disorder or the like. It's going to be worse this time.

Oh lord, and this was meant to be the non-angsty version!

Raksha has added an interesting commet here.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Oh, but Eowyn _has_ to be more supportive this time. Unless she's complete idiot and thinks that since he managed to avoid the open combat in Mordor (and I hope he did), he's less honorable than those who rode to Morannon.
The angsty part of the "Game of chess" was family dynamics, right?
By the way, I did like the story, but I don't believe in abusive Denethor. I think the conflict between father and son is exactely there you put it in the "Turn of tide": D. is a realist and shadows hold no meaning for him, and F. is more of a mystic, a visionary. As a result, at least he can tell his own inner voice from imposture. BTW, I think Aragorn is a realist, too -- only he has better information of what exectely constitutes their reality.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I agree completely with Denethor=realist, Faramir=idealist as the source of the conflict. And I agree that Aragorn is a realist too... I guess his perspective his different as a result of knowing better than Denethor that Elves, for example, are entirely real.

The domestic violence in AGOC was something I hadn't planned for; it came out as the story was being written. I see a variety of different interpretations working very well for that family.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Meanwhile, I've got more angsty ideas:

Boromir intercepts Frodo, Sam and Faramir in Ithilien and kills his brother. Hobbits escape (Frodo puts the Ring on exactly the moment Aragorn looks in the palantir, distracting and disorienting Sauron who thinks Aragorn has the Ring) and proceed to Kirith Ungol. Horrified Boromir comes to Minas Tirith to face Denethor and Mithrandir whom he thought dead. "There is your brother, Boromir?" Asks M., but D. who saw him dead (not dyeing) in palantir answers. Boromir rides to the outwalls next day, seeking death. He didn't tell D. or M. how his brother dyed, but they both had guessed; Denethor tells him not to throw away his life rashly or in bitterness, for he loves him (every dialog cited from the RotK as literally as possible), Mithrandir leads the sortie to bring Boromir and his men back, and Imrahil takes him strait to the HoH. Denethor does not get mad, he makes not his speach about upstart from the North, but does not command the city either. Aragorn comes to heal the wounded. The Dark Vale for Boromir is along the lines of Raksha's description, and Aragorn tells him that "this dark and desperate realm is no place for your brother"; he summons Boromir back _for trial_, and exiles him to govern the neglected Anorien after the war. Broken Denethor serves Steward under the King; B. marries the first one to agree. His son is bright, compassionate and bookish. It takes him long years to sort out his father's strange moods and guilty affection. B. never comes to MT. Hope D. lives long enough to pass Stewardship to Faramir III. I hate all this stuff honestly.
Another version is less angsty but feels even sicker: F. is not dead but grievously wounded and taken by B. to Henneth Annun. In MT B. does not mention F. at all, M. worries and D. does not care. I guess A. will have to retrieve his comrade on the way to Morannon, I wonder how. Too much hurt/comfort to be bearable.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Boromir intercepts Frodo, Sam and Faramir in Ithilien and kills his brother.

Oh god! *covers eyes, peeks out*

I agree the best AUs use dialogue from the original to ironic and/or tragic effect.

Too much hurt/comfort to be bearable.

Is there such a thing?!

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

covers eyes, peeks out <\i>

Is it not in character? Worse things happened around Silmarills, and this device is evil by design.

> too much hurt/comfort to be bearable
Is there such a thing?

Need a link? :)

I better stop right now. It should not happen. Nobody going to write it. *covers her mouth with both hands; covers eyes and ears, too*

[altariel.livejournal.com]

too much hurt/comfort to be bearable
Is there such a thing?

Need a link? :)

Ooh, go for it, that sounds like a challenge!

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Now I don't know if I don't breach fandom conventions pointing to something critically. There is a whole FA timeline of stories there Aragorn and Faramir get in painfull trouble all the time; they share sort of emotional and mental bond *blushes* wich imperils them both even in a rare event then only one is hurt. It's usually a brief exposure with a misadventure and a long and detailed recovering process. No slash. Guilt, regret, tears, reconstillations; ornamental appearance of the Ladies.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Guilt, regret, tears, reconstillations; ornamental appearance of the Ladies.

:-)

[rakshathedemon.livejournal.com]

I think Faramir might be tempted, but not for very long, and certainly not enough to attack Frodo. I think he is a stronger, and in the totality of his character, better man than Boromir (forgive me, Boromir-fans!). I could see him having an internal struggle after Moria, with the Ring whispering at him. Faramir would win the struggle either in Lorien, or on Amon Hen, and after that the Ring leaves him alone. After all, the Ring wasn't much of a distraction to Aragorn.

I think Aragorn and Faramir would start to trust each other before Aragorn and Boromir did.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I can't seem to stop myself heading off in an angsty direction! I think the Ring was a distraction to Aragorn, although perhaps not a temptation: I think it makes him second-guess himself and fills him with doubt. He identifies that as a problem after the Fellowship is broken. ("Alas! An ill fate is on me this day, and all that I do goes amiss"), but I think his indecision about which bank of the River to follow is a symptom of the Ring's influence.

Great icon!

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

As a Faramir fan, I wish the Ring would left him alone, and soon. But for the sake of the story something has to be going while they traverse Mordor. Aragorn's line of the story has all the action a reader can believe, and Faramir with hobbits can fight openly only so much until they encounter more orks they can handle -- so the events on this side of the border should be of the different sort. I think the Ring still talks to him, even after he saw what it have done to Boromir, distracts and endangers, even if does not really tempt.

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Actually, timing is not such a problem, too: Faramir, probably, didn't get lost in the mountains, that could buy them about a day; after that they go with Gollum's speed. Aragorn, on the other hand, wasn't delayed by burial, wich cost him a day in the ork-chase. And since nothing of importance to narrative precedes Eomer's raid, he could have intercepted orks earlier or meet Aragorn closer to Fangorn.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Sorry, can't help at the moment. Am up to my armpits in "The Young Knights" - working hard on Chapter 6 right now, as the first part is intended to his cyberspace on Friday. Afraid there won't be a full advent calendar this year, though... :((

But I would like to see them interact one day. Perhaps if "Seal On My Heart" reached Minas Tirith, I might try my hand on it. Unless I give up on the story due to the total lack of interest, that is.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a heavy writing schedule. I have some bits and pieces I want to finish up before December, and then a whole pile of things I want to get done before Christmas. A shame we won't see an Advent calendar, but I appreciate how there can be just too much to do.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

A shame we won't see an Advent calendar, but I appreciate how there can be just too much to do.

Oh, I am going to try! I just can't guarantee that I'll get as far as the necessary 24 pieces.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I'll enjoy what you produce.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

Heh. I wonder. I've just posted the first part of the Elfhelm story to TFF, I'm curious if anyone would be interested in it. It's a totally weird one, even I admit that only obsessed readers have a chance with that one. At least until it gets to Chapter 3, where Strider appears. *g*

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

It's good to see more Tolkienfic flowing from your pen!

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Thank you! :-)

[phyloxena.livejournal.com]

Did I tell you "The Turn of the Tide" almost made me cry? It's strange, really, how one gets invested in an imaginary world.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I hope it was the good kind of cry. And yes - it is strange how passionate and invested one can get.