(no subject)

[altariel]

Sympathies to anyone reading this, Catholic or otherwise, who's mourning the death of the Pope.

In 1978, our devoutly Catholic household naturally followed the election of not one but two new Popes with very keen interest. It was thrilling to see the white smoke. In 1982, I went with my mother to see the Pope arrive at Liverpool airport. The Popemobile scurried past at a fair old pace, but later in the day an official from the plane gave to me and my friend two red and white posies that had been given to the Pope at an earlier stop-off point (very exciting - we were about ten years old at the time). Even after I stopped being Catholic, it was sad to see such a vigorous and active man become so sick and frail over the years.

Appointing a Polish pope was, of course, a very shrewd move by the cardinals at the time. I hope the conclave now acts with wisdom and compassion, and elects a progressive and modernizing successor.

Comments

[the-wild-iris.livejournal.com]

I was lucky enough to see the Pope about four years ago - I was on a guided tour of the Vatican with some friends, and we emerged into St Peter's Square as the Pope was giving his Sunday blessing. Of course, his frailty was already obvious then, but his authority was very tangible, too.

I was very moved by the reportage of his death, although it's hard to 'regret' it when he'd suffered so long and seemed so accepting. I loved the crowd's reaction - breaking into applause - probably no one would dare to do that in England for fear of seeming irreverent, but it seemed really fitting.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

:-)

[kendokamel.livejournal.com]

Indeed

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

I think they're going to go with a hardliner this time; the old men who think they own the Church aren't comfortable with a lot of changes in the world, and feel that going back to the way that things used to be is the only way to inspire devotion and faith. Also, there have been a lot of scandals in the Church of late; I can see the Cardinals thinking, "If we just toughen up on the rules, those things wouldn't happen."

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid you may be right.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I'd love to visit the Vatican.

[kalypso-v.livejournal.com]

I did some years ago, but I'm afraid I didn't spot a pope, and there's something about the itinerary, where they march you round and round in a prescribed order until you finally end up in the Sistine Chapel that meant I'd pretty much lost my enthusiasm for Michelangelo by the time I got there. I prefer his sculpture anyway, especially the late (probably unfinished) stuff. My father's cousin Mollie used to work in the Vatican library, though I think she must have retired by the time the John Pauls were elected. Suppose she must have encountered popes from time to time, though.

[espresso-addict.livejournal.com]

I hope the conclave now acts with wisdom and compassion, and elects a progressive and modernizing successor.

Indeed; preferably one with bundles of charisma to carry through the changes.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

And longevity.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I once shook hands with an Archbishop. And saw a Cardinal (who was ordaining my cousin at the time).

[dolamrothdame.livejournal.com]

Indeed. Not Catholic myself, though my father was, but I find watching the whole business fascinating.

If they elect a traditional hard-liner, I think there might be a lot of trouble from the American side of things. There are certain segments of the American church which are very liberal or progressive and don't much appreciate a hard-line, patriarchal message. I wonder if we won't see a schism at some point, if a really traditional, conservative pope is elected.

I also have to wonder if they do elect a more liberal pope, if the celibacy requirement will go away at some point. I am told, though I don't know if it is true, that there are priests in some parts of the world (Africa for one) who are allowed to marry because otherwise the Church would be unable to find priests to serve in those countries at all. If that is so, it seems rather unfair to the others, and perhaps someone here knows whether that is actually true or not.

Besides, the whole idea that the celibacy thing is some sort of non-negotiable divine requirement handed down from God tickles me since it was a human solution enacted in response to sexual scandals in the Middle Ages. Revoking it now might solve a couple of problems for the church-the current sexual scandals and the shortage of priests, which is getting critical in places over here. In the Lexington, KY area(the largest city near me), there are several smaller churches that stand empty most of the time because they have to rotate priests around. And a lot of those priests are getting too old to appreciate or withstand hopping from church to church.

Of course, recruiting from the other 51% of the human race might also solve the shortage problem... We have a lady here who is a very vocal advocate for allowing women to be ordained. Gets dragged out of ordinations all the time, raises the money to put up big billboards advertising her cause. We also have a nun who regularly gets arrested for chaining herself in protest to the front gate of the School of the Americas.

Not wanting to offend anyone here, just an irreligious outsider's rather interested perspective.

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

I suspect the College won't elect a particularly progressive successor - but I do think they'll elect a much older successor, deliberately acting to prevent another 20+ year long Papacy. A transitional Pope, as it were. And after he's gone, the next person to get the job may well be more reformist.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Last time they did that they got John XXIII and Vatican II!

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

*crosses fingers*

[altariel.livejournal.com]

I bet married priests come long before women priests (both ideas make perfect sense to me, not that it's really my business any more!).

I can see that the church is trying to defend the authority of its teaching on issues like contraception, but it seems to me that once people are willing to justify to themselves ignoring Church teaching in one area (and they will justify things to themselves), that weakens the Church's teaching even further. Once you reject one thing, the rest follows.

[wiseheart.livejournal.com]

In 1978, the Iron Courtain was still firmly in place. When the Polish pope got elected, we were all enthusiastic. I remember haviing a choir rehearsal and hugging each other like mad people when the message came in. We've hoped for a Church that would finally catch up with the twentieth century.

Instead, during those almost three decades, the Church gradually retreated at least a hundred years or more. What a horrible disappointment for us! And even after his death, by the assigning of bishops and cardinals, John Paul II had taken care of keeping the Church firmly there for another twenty years or so.

I'm very sorry for him, that he had to suffer so much. I knew he meant it all well. But the conservativism that kept the Polish Church alive during the decades of socialistic regime, has poisoned the global Church and stopped its development for many decades - and that at a time when it was losing its position rapidly anyway. Which was the very reason why I walked out of it some ten years ago.

So yeah, I have very mixed feelings about the whole thing. Especially about the media circus around the Pope's death and his funeral. I found it disgusting, to be honest. And I'm deadly afraid whom the conclave will elect next. Not that it'd concern me personally. But some part of me still doesn't want the Church to become even more of a dead institution.

[altariel.livejournal.com]

Yes, it does feel like a real opportunity was lost to move the Church forwards. Perhaps the next Pope will surprise people.

I found the media coverage unaffecting and quite distancing, in a way, as if I was watching through glass. But nowhere near as bizarre as the reaction to Diana's death.